Thursday, August 13, 2009

People need to learn history already

I saw this video and commented over at Konagod, but I had to do a bit more over at my own place as I kept stewing about this women's ignorance.

First, my comment over at Konagod:

I agree with Katy here, lets go back to the way the Founding Fathers viewed this country. Women, including Katy, should not be allowed to speak, we should re-institute slavery with minorities considered lower class citizens and only white male landowners should be able to vote and be involved in politics. Ya know, when people show off their ignorance, it just amazes me. How do you get through high school let alone college with this much ignorance? I have no idea if she went to college, but I am going to hope she graduated from high school. People need to realize that the Constitution and the country as a whole has changed and has evolved and maybe we as an electorate need to change with it.

Also, did anyone else notice at the end how her whole ideas of people helping the less fortunate kind of sounds like socialism. Plus who wants to have a $5000 deductible if they don't have to. I don't understand how choice is bad, but then again I am a pinko commie so what do I know.

I really don't understand how you can go through life with such a naive view of the founding father. They were slave holders, they were racist, they were misogynistic and they were rapists/adulterers (adulterers if you are being nice about the illegitimate black children they fathered, rapists if the truth is told about those same illegitimate children). How the fuck are we supposed to view that as the good old days? And what the fuck is this women talking about, "the founding fathers didn't want some of these programs". How the fuck does she know the the founding fathers did not want the populous to be taken care of as they get older, Medicare? When asked if she has told her parents not to go on Medicare, she responds that they don't talk about politics. That is not the fucking question, do you do you not want your parents to have health insurance as they get older? This is a fucking question of what you want for your parents. You have the means that you will never need government health care or even Medicare as you get older, that is great for you and I say fuck off then. There are many of us, myself included, that will need Medicare. I will want and need health care when I get older. Yes, I have health care now, but as I get older and then retire, I will not have the means to pay all of my medical bills without some kind of health care. I sure as hell won't be able to afford to pay the private companies for their version of health care that probably wouldn't even cover half of the issues I will have.

Furthermore, she says she heard President Obama says he wants single payer healthcare, but when pressed, she heard it on TV, but she does not know when, "in maybe like 2002 or 2003." So you believe everything you hear on TV, huh, and where did you hear this wonderful clip? I would put my life on that fact that you either never heard it and are bullshitting or you heard it on Fox News which lies constantly. You want to debate national health care, then fine, but lets debate it based upon facts not half truths and lies. And lets debate it in a civilized fashion, not by yelling your opponent down and threatening violence against those that are on the other side of the issue. I am all for a civilized debate on a national health care plan and how to implement it, but not the way it is being debated now.


Anonymous said...

The founding Fathers risked their lives, their livlihoods and their families to plant a seed. The seed to which I refer is democracy. It took time to grow but grow it did– into life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for EVERY American.

I ask that you open your mind and look at your arguments through the light of history.

Slavery began to exist when civilizations began to exist. It is known to have occurred in Sumer, Ancient Egypt, the Akkadian Empire, Assyria, Ancient Greece, Rome and parts of its empire. The Vikings captured and enslaved those they conquered. Muslims consistently took European slaves. Mongols took slaves. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were sold into slavery to the Turks. Between 1930 and 1960, the Soviet regime created numerous labor camps working 5-7 million people in these camps at any one time. In later years the camps also held victims of Stalin’s purges (HE WAS ENSLAVING THOSE WHO DISAGREED WITH HIM) as well as World War II prisoners. The Dutch imported slaves from Asia into their colony in South Africa. Ethiopia officially abolished slavery and serfdom after regaining its independence in 1942. Today even young women and girls are lured to wealthier countries by the promises of money and work and are then reduced to sexual slavery. The Arab or Middle Eastern slave trade continued into the early 1900s, and by some accounts continues to this day. Slavery in Morocco was outlawed in the 1930s. As recently as the 1950s, Saudi Arabia had an estimated 450,000 slaves. It is estimated that as many as 200,000 black south Sudanese children and women (mostly from the Dinka tribe sold by the Sudanese Arabs of the north) have been taken into slavery in Sudan during the Second Sudanese Civil War.

My point being that slavery was not dreamed up by the colonists. The founding father’s where creating a new form of government in a very old world. Slavery was not abolished in Britain until 1883 please understand. If you can try to put yourselves in their shoes, even though I know it is difficult and awkward from the perspective of today. And as for women and the right to vote, do you know the first country to allow women to vote was New Zealand and that was not until 1893. Big changes take time (kinda like health care reform?)

And speaking of that. Yes, I adore a $5,000 deductible in a health savings account. You know why? Because it gives my family incentive to stay healthy and then invest the portion of that money we did not spend. I loathe to think what I will spend (in taxes) a year on a government run system.

Back to the founding fathers, they included: Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, John Hancock, Thomas Paine, Roger Sherman, John Jay, James Wilson, Gouvernor Morris. Name the rapists among them and share with me your evidence.

...By the way, what do you say to Bill Clinton having relations with a VERY young woman when he was in a VERY powerful position over her?

Anonymous said...

Oops, I see a typo. Britain abolished slavery in 1833 (through most of it's empire).

Boxer rebel said...

Uh huh and your point in that tirade was? You gave me the history of slavery and for that I thank you, but I am not sure how that is relevant to the health care debate, or was that not your point?

Also, it was very common for slave owners to have illegitimate children with their slaves. The best known example of this is Thomas Jefferson children he had with Sally Hemings. And if you chose to say that he was not a rapist, than fine, he was at least an adulterer in that situation. Clinton was also an adulterer and it can be argued he used his power to elicit sex with several women, I am not defending him at all, but again this has nothing to do with the health care debate.

You say you are fine with having a $5000 deductible, that is your prerogative. But not every one has the luxury of paying all of their medical expenses out of pocket as would likely be the case with that high a deductible. So, there should be some option for those who can't afford a high deductible and the government health care plan seems to be the best option, IMHO. You are not forced to take a government health care plan, if the bill is enacted, so you are free to stay with what you have currently.

Anonymous said...

You brought up the slave thing when you were slamming all the founding fathers in your little tirade. You said it was "very common" for slave owners to have illegitmate children with their slaves. I know it did happen and I know rape did happen, but it was not "very common". You are distorting history.

Anyway, Thomas Jefferson was hot. Maybe Sally Hemings threw herself at him. Did you ever think of that?

Now to get out of Jefferson's bed and back to health care. In which country in this world right now would you prefer to have heart surgery? The United States has produced the best medical services and technologies the world has ever known. The Health Care System does not need to be completely overhauled. The vast majority of people are satisfied as is, and don't want government controlling more, more, more. We are running out of money for the Social Secruity program. How will we fund a health care monstrosity now and for years and years and years to come? There are problems, but surely they can be fixed without throwing the baby away with the bath water.

Boxer rebel said...

I did mention slavery, but only as a note that when you say lets get back to the way the country was when the founding fathers created it, we are including slavery and lack of rights for non-white male land owning individuals. That was who had rights in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, white males. That was my only point, people forget about some of the not as modern ideas that also existed in our past.

Anyway, as you noted, lets move on. I do not think the whole health care system needs to be overhauled and am not seeing that as what is being proposed. What is being proposed is the overhaul of how some people pay for health care. There are many people who can't afford health care and so have to use the emergency room as their primary doctor. This then taxes the ER and us as taxpayers as we have to pay someone else's medical bills which might have been able to be prevented. Some of the cases that go into the ER from people with no health care are for things like the common cold or for a flu shot. These things could all be handled at a primary doctor's office, but if you don't have or can't afford medical insurance than you have no choice, but to use the ER for issues that should be handled elsewhere.

Also, I am happy with my health insurance, my employer pays my premiums and it seems to be at least Ok if not good insurance (I have not had to use it yet). But I am not thinking of myself, I am thinking of others. Those who are now unemployed and have no insurance, those who work at minimum wage jobs and do not get any coverage from their employer, and people who have insurance, but it is not enough insurance. So, do I disagree with you that in America we have a great medical profession? No, but not everyone can access this great health care system and that is what needs to be fixed.

Newsboy said...

All Anonymous needs to have happen to wake him (or her up) is to loose his job or his business, have a string of bad luck (like not getting a new job), run into a health care crisis and then maybe his opinion will change.

The simple fact that our health is dependent on our employment and that our coverage is dependent on the lack of pre-existing conditions should make health care reform a no-brainer. The fact that we are arguing this well into the 21st century is proof positive of how far off the rails of sanity the discussion of anything political or economic has run in this country (a poor sentence construct, but I think you get where I'm going).

Best health care system in the world? Maybe. Or maybe we just have cool stuff.